The problem is not people being uneducated. The problem is people are educated just enough to believe what they've been taught and not educated enough to question what they've been taught.

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." Mark Twain

Anyone, I would like to know what god was doing before this creation.

"A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right and evil doesn't become good just because it's accepted by a majority." Booker T. Washington

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." Thomas Jefferson
"Tell a lie often enough, loud enough, and long enough and people will believe you." Joseph Gobbels

IN SEARCH OF THE ONE TRUE RELIGION

Hello Mr. Singh, to answer your question, there was no 'before' creation, as all time, space and matter came about AT creation. Since nothing can come from nothing (Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit), the cause of the creation of the universe HAS to be timeless, spaceless and immaterial. Numbers and laws of logic would be examples of such a thing. However, they are causally inert (they cannot bring anything into existence). A mind and/or person is another example, but these are causally active, as these can WILL/CHOOSE to act. The Bible presents God as one in Being (Substance - a 'WHAT'), Three in Persons ('WHO'). Since God is perfect, the 3 Persons of the Godhead would be communing, loving and delighting in each other's presence 'when' the universe did not exist. God had NO NEED to create, but chose to.

"there was no 'before' creation, as all time, space and matter came about AT creation."
Vj ~ And couldn't "time, space and matter" have come the same way before as it is now?

"Numbers and laws of logic would be examples of such a thing."Vj ~ The earth is flat, the sun isn't moving and snakes and donkeys talked, so from my perspective if you were really familiar with Numbers and laws of logic" you could never be a Christian.

"The Bible presents God as one in Being"
Vj ~ Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, so it was India that gave the world the concept of God. Try to adopt the discipline of impartiality and sobriety and do some honest inquiry into my faith - vjsingh.info

"God had NO NEED to create, but chose to."
Vj ~ He is bound by his attributes as creator, sustainer and dissolver which means the "NEED" is always there. He has no beginning and no end which means creation and dissolution , births and rebirths are eternal phenomena. Souls are eternal which means there has always a purpose.

Dear Mr. Singh, I thought you had a genuine question and assumed that you are a person who is in search of the true, the good and the beautiful. However, from your response, it looks like I am mistaken and may have wasted my time, so I will stop after this response.

1. Time, space and matter - if they came to exist (and the Standard Model does confirm that) - could ONLY have come about by the act of a timeless, spaceless and immaterial Being. That is obvious to reasonable people (given my brief explanation before). I am not sure what you mean by 'have come the same way before as it is now.' The way it COULD have come about, was what was mentioned.

2. W.r.t. numbers and the laws of logic being given as examples, you have nothing to say to refute them, and so you have decided to change the subject to other unrelated things. I will not engage those.

3. The age of a belief does not make it true. As an example, the fact that the Ptolemaic belief of geocentricity is earlier than the Copernican belief of heliocentricity doesn't make the former true. I am familiar with Hinduism, including the Kurma (the tortoise holding the elephants holding up the earth), the 5-7 headed snake Shesha on which Vishnu lies, the serpent Vasuki, etc. I imagine I don't need to speak about their 'truth value.'

4. God is self-sufficient. Therefore He has no need. If He had a need, He wouldn't be perfect, and He would have to do something to find sufficiency outside Himself. Since you disagree, we will agree to disagree on that. Births, rebirths, etc. cannot be eternal phenomena, as that would mean that there is an infinite past. But it cannot be, as that would mean that we have crossed an infinite bridge of time to be at the present moment. Since it is impossible to cross an infinite bridge (of time and of events, in this case), and we have, we know that there has not been an infinite set of events (births, rebirths, etc.) in the past. Only God as a Being - being outside time - is eternal. Souls are created in time, and are eternal into the future.

You may have the last word, if you so choose. Good day sir.

lNavin Mathew
14 hours ago

Vijai Singh
1 second ago
@Navin Mathew "I thought you had a genuine question"
Vj ~ And you don't think the question of what God was doing before this creation is genuine enough?

"it looks like I am mistaken"
Vj ~ How would you know that you're not if you don't know **** about my faith? - vjsingh.info

" I am not sure what you mean by 'have come the same way before as it is now.' "
Vj ~ You hold that position because the Bible doesn't have an answer for what God was doing before or whether he existed before now.

"I will not engage those."
Vj ~ The Christian faith opposes laws (of nature) and logic, the reason you can't engage. Resurrection of the dead, virgin birth, etc. are all breach of natural laws and logic.

"The age of a belief does not make it true."
Vj ~ True, but only when a "belief" is in harmony with reasoning, science and conforms to the laws of nature, it is true.
Also "A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right and evil doesn't become good just because it's accepted by a majority." Booker T. Washington

"I am familiar with Hinduism"
Vj ~ So am I!. If you weren't the ******* you are, you could have perused my criticism on Hinduism before bringing it up.

"Souls are created in time, and are eternal into the future."
Vj ~ Here is my last words, you've got **** for brains! Whatever has a beginning must come to an end, a law.
How can something finite (created) have no ending when only that which has no beginning has no end (eternal)?

The again if they are created, it would mean they are innocent, so why did your God condemned so many to pain and misery of the worst kinds for no fault of their own?

Ravi is a gift from God, a blessing to all who hear him speak, what a brilliant mind! God bless you Ravi Zacharias.

A brilliant mind is one that thinks.
Talking snakes and donkeys are definitely not the trait of such a mind.

Scrolling thru the posts I see you're on a roll Vijai. Now...do you have s/thing constructive to add to the discussion? At this point, I'm guessing you get up on the wrong side of the bed every day...yes/no?

Scrolling thru the posts I see you're on a roll Vijai
Vj ~ I see you have no interest in the intellect. It is thinking, not "scrolling", that nourishes the intellect.

At this point, I'm guessing
Vj ~ Yes, that's what religion is all about guessing! How would you know what's constructive?

Vijai Singh an education is constructive, it's a construction of the brain. You sir , have no education

How do you explain one with "no education" can think and you and Ravi with a constructive brain can converse with snakes and donkeys?

Vijai,the snakes and donkeys are made to see and speak as saved beings do by GOD (simply because He can) , don't think that rejecting that fact will leave you with the same " thinking/reasoning (you claim to have now) during your punishment in hell. It says there is the weight of guilt/sin that cannot be removed during punishment ... in the Bible it mentions the yoke of Jesus is light. So that must mean the weight of death's yoke is terrible. Jesus also didn't force anyone to accept He is GOD just as the Father doesn't force anyone but he did require it. So you on YT proving you don't know what you are talking about shows very little in the way of education that you claim to have

Are you really listening to yourself? God made them talked, says who, the ignorant people who wrote the Bible. Is it the same who God told them the earth is flat and sun is moving?
There is no cure for a fool, so I'm not here to do so.


"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." Thomas Jefferson

Vijai Singh those are pagan religions, you do said you study, but you don't because you're uneducated.. burning people is a pagan religion.. Christianity is in the Bible. A specific group of books , do you know it? Did you read it? No you didn't .. Lutheran movement was a Christian movement until they killed him and sacrificed all his followers which the Pope's called pagans. Then as with any uprising they do not destroy it. They corrupt it and twist in their pagan freemasons system. Templars were the same. Roman catholicism did the same.. American protestantism did the same. Hinduism is pagan which is why you don't see facts clearly

Bible is a horribly unrealistic book. Historical paperweight.
Ravi is a snake oil salesmen.

He's a con man. Jesus is as real as Bugs Bunny.

Vijai Singh you haven't found a cure yet have you. Did you ever question why if Christianity was such a fable has it been such a threat to the world as to torture and imprison the believers of Jesus. If it was so untrue why do those in history carry out so much hatred towards a simple hoax. Why do you feel the need to go out of your way to bash it if nothing of the supernatural kind is driving you. Why do you take time out of your oh so important life that supposedly came into being from a big bang. Next time a print shop has explosion maybe you'll discover some new profound dictionary to the universe. Hey it's just likely as the way they describe our origin for existence. Perhaps the monkeys will sit down with you and explain it all 😂🤣. That's as likely as the egg making and fertilizing itself to make the chicken.

What kind of god would create one man and one woman leaving brothers with no choice to screw their own sisters?

Do you know incest leads to mental and physical infirmity? I guess you don't have the brains to think that far.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Vijai Singh yet it's been everyone against christianity that has slaughtered Christians thus what you are saying still makes no sense. Your claim is that God wouldn't exist because of incest yet people believe we evolved for a blast in outer space 😂🤣. I guess you haven't evolved enough to the brains to think that far.

It is very simple lady, I am saying your god isn't god, as God, being All-wise, knows better. Your bible was written by ignorant men and has nothing to with God.

Your god doesn't even know what he was doing before this creation.

"Do you know incest leads to mental and physical infirmity?"

Do you understand the mechanisms of why this is so? If there are only two people, and there are no defects or inferiorities in the genetic code, this is not a problem. It is when defects, drop-outs, or other damaged code is constantly reinforced that problems start to arise. And radiation from the sun (among other things) damages DNA. So over time, having a diversity of genetic code is a benefit, but also no guarantee against 'inferior' offspring.

Now, what I said here is an oversimplified explanation, as I have not the time nor inclination to explain it further here. Genetics is yet a little understood field, with complexities not yet imagined. As a species, we're just into the edge of the water in a vast ocean of data and knowledge needed to understand the system.

The reason you're a Christian defending what is morally wrong is that you're stupid.
The laws of morality work one way from the beginning (of creation) to the end. What is immoral now could have never been morally right at any time, now, in the past or in the future.
Only an idiot would be guilty of changing the rules in the middle of a game.
It is an action, virtuous or sinful, and not "mechanism" that decides morality or immorality. Get it lamebrain!

You may be right about that actually, about having more time when doing G-d's work. I believe that. He rewards us with that. I've tried doing "sleep time," for me, it doesn't work. I'm tired the next day.
I'd rather get up early and write then (something I've got to get back to doing anyway). I'm sorry then, I just assumed you were Hindu, after all, aren't they the followers of the Vedic writings. If not, do you believe in the post-Vedic works such as the Bhagavad Gita?
That philosophy is very interesting, it is the same in Judaism, we are punished and rewarded for our own actions, G-d, in a sense, just serves as the judge, reading out the verdict. Again, we have a form of reincarnation, where souls who have not done their mission in this life, are brought back into the fold to try again.
But here's where the similarities end. In Judaism, there is an eternal, blissful reward in Gan Edan (heaven). Lastly, the G-d of Israel is not a tribal god, He created the world and all that is in it, He did it for everyone, not just the Jews.
Thank you for your sympathies, Vj. I really appreciate it.

You may be right about that actually, about having more time when doing G-d's work. I believe that. He rewards us with that.
Vj ~ You believe (uncertainty) but I know. I'm experiencing it. "The less you know the more you believe." Bono

I've tried doing "sleep time," for me, it doesn't work. I'm tired the next day.
Vj ~ You are tired because of lack of physical exercise. It is what I do early in the morning while in contemplation.

I'd rather get up early and write then (something I've got to get back to doing anyway.
Vj ~ Try contemplation instead of writing or reading. It is the perfect way of raising the intellect to an exalted mental through the process of reasoning.

I'm sorry then, I just assumed you were Hindu, after all, aren't they the followers of the Vedic writings.
Vj ~ That's Ok! You wouldn't had to assume if you had done some inquiry of my faith which contains information on how, when and where the HIndus failed.

If not, do you believe in the post-Vedic works such as the Bhagavad Gita?
Vj ~ Any works pertaining to Vedic philosophy I accept, but I reject those that are anti-Vedic.

That philosophy is very interesting, it is the same in Judaism, we are punished and rewarded for our own actions, G-d, in a sense, just serves as the judge, reading out the verdict. Again, we have a form of reincarnation, where souls who have not done their mission in this life, are brought back into the fold to try again.
Vj ~ Again, I agree on reward and punishment, but whose God is true or real must first be established, only then we can be certain of what happened in the past to determine the present and how it shapes the future.
But here's where the similarities end. In Judaism, there is an eternal, blissful reward in Gan Edan (heaven).
Vj ~ Where is it and will you still be Justin as you presently are?

Lastly, the G-d of Israel is not a tribal god, He created the world and all that is in it, He did it for everyone, not just the Jews.
Vj ~ This I disagree, since he existed only in a particular time, place and dwelt with a particular race. How could he be everyone when Hinduism is the oldest religion? Surely, you must know by now that creation is more than 6000 years old and humans have occupied it for a very long, long time. You can get while people from blacks and you cannot get black people from white, which means both evolved from brown people. Besides revelation, reasoning tells me that we (Indians) were the first race on this planet.

Thank you for your sympathies, Vj. I really appreciate it.
Vj ~ When one discovers one's true nature one's act of compassion and mercy is best demonstrated by being a vegetarian. If you have no compassion for God's sentient creatures you can't love anything else. In your own right, you may call it love, but that is not how one true Creator of the universe sees it.