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The power of perfect reasoning is essential to know.


The one true religion

A discriminating intellect is that in which knowledge based only on words, real knowledge and ordinary knowledge based on sense perception or reasoning are present in a mixed state and the mind alternates between them.

"When the time of destruction is at hand the intellect becomes perverted." Vridha Chan. 16:17.
Topic of discussion
Five Tests of true religion - Feb 08, 2002
  1. It (revelation) must exist in its entirety from the very beginning of creation for all of mankind, and not over a long period of time after.
    Oppose - It is unjust of Yahwe, Allah and Christ, to deprive millions born before the revelation of the Ten Commandments, the Q'uran, and the New Testament of His 'divine wisdom'. An injustice which cannot be the work of a Just, Compassionate and Merciful God.
  2. It must conform with (immutable) Natural laws
  3. Oppose - The cause of the physical body is the reproductive element - any other method as man was created from dust or blood-clot and all other miracles of God and Prophets are a breach to this law.
  4. It must be in harmony with reasoning.
    Oppose - Incest which results in mental and physical infirmities, is an immoral action and it had to be the same also in the beginning (creation of one man and one woman).
  5. It must be in harmony with science.
    Oppose - Modern science has proven creation to be more than 6,000 years old, the earth is spherical and it rotates and revolves, contradictions to the Torah, Bible and Q'uran.
  6. Its truth must be confirmed by four evidences :-
  • Direct Cognition - Not all that is known by perception can be true.
  • Inferences - God is eternal therefore we can infer that there were past creations and as well as there will be future ones.
  • Testimony - The testimonies of Rishis, sages and seers of the Vedas (altruistic teachers are all in harmony with each other.
  • History - There are many books (Mahabharata, Valmiki's Ramayan) and source of other civilization which speak of the past ancient Vedic (Aryas) civilization of 5,000 years ago and earlier.

Let's be reasonable when it comes the most abstruse science of God (wisdom), the ignorant (by repenting) and the wise (by austerity) can never reap the same rewards.


WARNING! Reader's discretion is advised - the truth offends!
Past dialogues debunking Religion
Other discussion boards:-  Can a fool, fool God?    Do all paths lead to God?   Debunking evolution
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The one true religion
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Religious emptiness

Nǐ hǎo, Mr, Singh, and the people of the Indian faith. I read your Q and A page and I’m left with questions and little answers.

I would be more than pleased if you would like to open a dialogue. I have read your version of India's astounded, vivid, praising history. But to my amazement, you have surprisingly excluded my country, one of the giants of eastern civilizations, China. Let's use discretion in this dialogue.

I want to prove to you why the history of the Chinses people eclipse the Indus Valley, and why I am convinced your tribal God is a fable. No divine presence. Only empty space.

There is an urge that I do not want to trust your God. Needless to say, he can not be found anywhere. Where was God when humans first embarked into space? They did not see him. They could not find him. If he existed, he should have shown himself then. Should God exist, the world should be more suitable for life. Why all the natural disasters? The immature death? Why the name of religious war? Where was God when all that happened?

I am swirling in a black hole. My human rights, robbed in the name of religion. God confined us in an endless game of deception. We are laughed at. Mocked at if we are going to commit sin. Where is human growth in all this? When we say that the world is suffering and that we can break this suffering by our status or contentment, we become incurably arrogant. When we stomp around and claim to all know everything, we are left to face the true prospect of our loneliness, our true condition in the universe. The fact is, we have encompassed our whole existence on a very small blue dot in the administrative universe. None of our existence is really meaningful for the great detailers. All the wars ever fought are but a small discoid, shedding emptiness even in the appearance of recent discovery some term the enlightenment. We are but a small, single voice in the canopy of essays. Volumes deep in the expanding universe. Who are we to be forcing justice based on the laws of karma upon others.

I call this religious life of sacred practices and observances a wasted life. Had your God existed, I would be much offended. God, who would steal my dignity, the ability to think for myself. To question reality. Casts doubts. To explore, in order to find the best in everyone. It is as if I relaxed towards my vague direction. As if I were some member of a bundle of fish, swimming towards my demise. God, the merciless judge is the shark in this game. And religion is the fisherman who has cast his net, the church who preaches a way out, who yanks us away from our pending deaths only to be prepared for the hot oven and consumed later in the local markets. There is your God. There is your religion. Were we not deprived of our true living?

Worshiping God as the eternal or a dictator demi-god as in Japanese/Korean mythology limits us to a retrospective social structure. We are confined to greediness in the pursuit of wealth and desires, replacing the needs of others for our own social experiments. We are under the shadow of shame and insult because it (religion) cannot satisfy the interests of the entire human race. Religion can never exhaust reality. I find this idea truly appalling. What is your opinion?

Sincerity,

Mr. Moka Masato

美好的一天

Re: Religious emptiness

Welcome Masato!
Religious emptiness
Vj ~ You're indeed empty and will continue to be so, if all you have to say is what you already know.

I read your Q and A page and I’m left with questions and little answers.
Vj ~ And why is that? Are you saying before you read my "Q & A" you had answers and "little" or no questions?

you have surprisingly excluded my country, one of the giants of eastern civilizations, China.
Vj ~ No I haven't! When there were only two kinds of people (2 million years ago), we were the Aryas (noble) and you were the Dayus (wicked). India is cradle of all civilization including yours.
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace; human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only." Mark Twain
He said India, not China!

"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein
He didn't say Chinese or Europeans!

Needless to say, he can not be found anywhere.
Vj ~ God is All-wise and only the wise can find Him. And if you haven't found Him, this could be your problem!
"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." Confucius

What is your opinion?
Vj ~ You're right about everything that is horrible of yourself and the world because of the Maker. My guess is, you have the same opinion of auto makers when your car fails you, flat tire, overheated engine, blown piston, etc.?
My opinion is simple, you're an idiot who ignored the manual and instead, blame the maker for all the mess your world is in.

Re: Religious emptiness

Well, I see you compare God with an automaker, only that it is not thought that only automakers are perfect, flawless, and free of error. In fact, it reveals that God had forgotten to open the manual. If Mr. Singh would care to look up a history textbook, he will find out that we were homos 2.5 million years ago, absent of any civilization. It will take millions of years before we would evolve to become Homo sapiens (anatomically contemporary human beings). You're off in a few million years. If Aryas were the aristocrats and the Chinese played the fools, why were we moving thousands of years ahead of India?

Chinese contributions to this site

As you insist that India is the cradle of human civilization, let's examine and investigate the history of the Chinese people and let the readers make their own decisions.

Chinese contributions to world civilization

It was the Chinese who invented acupuncture, planetarium, block printmaking, the compass, paper money. We flew before anyone, using hot air balloons. We flew on kites as gliders and developed the harness for horsebacks. We had the famous silk roads, invented gunpowder and the science of medicine. We were pharmacologist and we measured earthquakes with a seismograph. We had tea and blasted furnaces, fireworks, and the abacus, a counting device. We had canals and locks and mechanical clocks. We wrote "Art of War" and developed the first crossbow. We made the movable sails and rudders. Our dynasty saw the highest of music. Roads, relay hostels, or inns, greatly improved communication and trade throughout the vast land of China. Smallpox inoculation, spinning wheel, umbrellas, gravitational theory, and the stirrups which without them, military and non-military equestrian use would never have progressed. We accomplished this.

Chinese contributions to the development of mathematics

We independently developed negative numbers, decimals, a place value decimal system, a binary system, algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. We used the sophisticated hexagrams and binary numbers. We developed the decimal system. arithmetic, algebra, equations, and negative numbers with counting rods. We had a fixed point theory, in addition to influencing nonlinear functional analysis. We had the number system complete, even the concept of a round symbol called the zero.

In comparison to other participating countries at the International Mathematical Olympiad, China has the highest team scores and the won the all-members-gold IMO with a full team the most number of times.

Chinese contributions to scientific development

We had astronomy, physics, chemistry, meteorology, seismology, technology, engineering, and the origins of mathematics is traced to China. The history of science and technology in China is long and rich and has many contributions to science and technology. In antiquity, ancient Chinese philosophers have made significant progress in science and advances in the science of technology, mathematics, and astronomy. Observations of the first recorded comets, eclipses, and supernovae were made in China. We had knowledge of alchemy. We had the first seismograph. This natural measurement tool did not appear in the West until about 1,500 years later, which was useful for measuring and predicting earthquakes at places such as California and Mexico. We had the vaccination which was widely done in China against smallpox. This technology and the techniques for it were little known in Europe until the 1800s introduced by Dr. Louis Pasteur.

However, the only remarkable or at least notable thing India has ever produced was the Buddha, and even him they refused.

Re: Religious emptiness

Well, I see you compare God with an automaker
Vj ~ Actually, you're a jacka-s-s in comparison to an automaker.

God had forgotten to open the manual.
Vj ~ So you want the Automakers to open the manual for you?

Mr. Singh would care to look up a history textbook
Vj ~ All I have to look up is the functions of natural laws, which you and those in history have no idea of how they work.
You should have spent time perusing the dialogue already taking place instead of making yourself an idiot or maybe you can't help it.
Or how about showing me and readers here, what your "history textbook" teaches on natural laws and they better be as smart as Einstein was.

"We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." Albert Einstein

If Aryas were the aristocrats and the Chinese played the fools, why were we moving thousands of years ahead of India?
Vj ~ Do you think progress, dictated by the laws of nature, is measured by bullet trains? It is not about where India is, it is about what India was and what the ancient Aryas gave the world.

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." Confucius
Show me how great China is, by explaining Confucius.

Re: Religious emptiness

We lay claim to Confucius. You can't quote him. Interestingly, you can't quote Indians either since they're not worth quoting. For centuries China stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences. It is okay if Inda was once a great country. It was the same with Rome. But China is a great nation today. And it will be China, who will lead the world nations to progress. India's past is no longer relevant.

Disqualification of Indian flight machinery

The idea that Indians flew 5000 years ago is unreasonable, and only foolish people could believe it. You insist that the Indian had a bright, vivid detail flight machine called Vimana However, Vimanika Shastra is not an actual ancient document. It was written in 1952. If you look at this in more detail (i.e. look closer) it becomes obvious that it is physically impossible for any of these crafts to get off the ground. Indeed, in 1974 a survey of texts and drawings was conducted by the Aerospace and Mechanical Institute of Science in Bangalore, India. For an explanation of how this work was done, I quote Will Hunt, an American freelance writer based in India. His description is vivid.

“As thoroughly as it had been written, the committee just as thoroughly dismantled the study in an essay called A Critical Study of the Work Vymanika Shastra. They questioned whether the author (whoever that may have been) had any grasp of basic physics, chemistry, and electricity, not to mention the “disciplines of aeronautics: aerodynamics, aeronautical structures, propulsive devices, materials, and metallurgy.” Their conclusion: “None of the planes has properties or capabilities of being flown; the geometries are unimaginably horrendous from the point of view of flying, and the principles of propulsion make them resist rather than assist flying.”

Another writer, JB hare writing for the Sacred Text Archive said the following of the craft in the Vimanika Shastra:

“They are absurdly non-aerodynami, brutalist wedding cakes, with minarets, huge ornithopter wings, and dinky propellers.”

In fact, the word Vimana came to mean "palace". Not an airplane! Here is what the actual Ramayana says. It says that flying chariots ran on fruit trees or drawn by geese.

The idea of a tank in flight is meaningless. The development of Vimana's ideas in Hindu myths/mythology can be traced easily and you lose all of that conspiracy when you do. It is dishonest and deceiving to say otherwise. it is a fraud book and deceitful.

Re: Religious emptiness

Chinese contributions to world civilization
Vj ~ Whatever the Aryas claimed in their contribution to all civilization, it is supported by a source knowledge, the Vedas. If you're making such claim, I would expect you to provide a source knowledge also. Otherwise, it is all hot air.

We lay claim to Confucius. You can't quote him.
Vj ~ Why because you're too stupid to change?

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." Confucius

Interestingly, you can't quote Indians either since they're not worth quoting.
Vj ~ Why, because one here is making you look stupid?

And it will be China, who will lead the world nations to progress. India's past is no longer relevant.
Vj ~ If you don't know your origin how can you charter your destination? What kind of progress is that?

The development of Vimana's ideas in Hindu myths/mythology can be traced easily and you lose all of that conspiracy when you do. It is dishonest and deceiving to say otherwise. it is a fraud book and deceitful.
Vj ~ I agree! I'm not a Hindu.

PS
Are you running from the subject of natural laws?

Re: Religious emptiness

Vedas are religious documents and are not regarded as reliable materials other than in religious studies. Scholars do not rely on them. Meanwhile, Mr. Singh, if you are interested in information of sources, that is excellent. So I would like to confirm that there was an Italian merchant named Marco Polo who visited China during the Song Dynasty in 1271 and wrote many books about his discoveries there. I would recommend you begin there.

Re: Religious emptiness

Vedas are religious documents and are not regarded as reliable materials other than in religious studies.

Vj ~ So who in China read the Vedas to come to such conclusion?

So I would like to confirm that there was an Italian merchant named Marco Polo who visited China during the Song Dynasty in 1271 and wrote many books about his discoveries there.
Vj ~ The Europeans also make such claims, but civilization didn't begin in 1271.
There was an ancient university in India named Nalanda where students came from all over the world, including China, to study.


You need Chinese education

Zero: It is worldwide recognition that China has taken the first step to develop the concept of zero. In order to be able to carry out mathematics, one needs to trace the origins of thought. The concept of zero is necessary to perform even the simplest mathematical calculations. Chinese used a combination and conjunction of traditional Chinese counting boards and small abacus. There is evidence that the use of actual '0' was used, this is due to Chinese invention. The origins of mathematics can then be attributed to the Chinese.

Like Alexandria's great library, at the beginning of the 12th century, a fire wiped out 9 million manuscripts at the library of Nalanda. Needless to say, Bakhtiyar Khalji, the Muslim invader sacked the university.

While all of these were done, we had the Imperial Academy, Taixuem. We provided Islamic education which was carried out in the Ming dynasty period. The education of the Qing dynasty period was dominated by the provincial academies that paid stipends to the students without requesting tuition.

"Provide education for all people without discrimination" — Confucius

Revealing false dogmas: Karma

I revealed a faith in Japan as false, a doctrine in Shinto called oomoto. Mr. Tanaka here has informed me that Dragons made the world 5 billion years ago. And three thousand years ago, God who's omniscient (knowing all), released the kami into the world, apparently not knowing this was a mistake. They say this was the reason for God's intervention less than 200 years ago since the world became confused during the last 3,000 years.

Given that Indians are the people suffering the majority of famine, floods, and poverty, considering all this, it is no wonder that the Indians seems to have the worst kind of karma. In view of all these, your god has failed you. And it's incredible that you find this thought appealing.

Here I release the doctrine of Karma as stupid and meaningless.

1st, Karma is said to give equal and opposite reaction to all actions. If those conditions can be improved, karma is useless. If karma is meaningless then there is no rule on morality based-karma.

2nd, If we can not prevail their bad karma, and if they deserve their current state, who will strive to improve the condistion of others? If their current state is the type made for their condition and our good deeds can not achieve them liberty, and if it says their karma is said to be endless poverty, then you should not disturb the master plan. Social justice is not necessary for such a system. We should walk aside and let Karma do the work. If you intervene then you're just standing in the way. Is that not the natural order of things?

3rd, Since Karma gives us what is appropriate, thieves should not be subject to human punishment! Their behavior was determined by Karma. If suffering is the outcome of Karma, no attempt should be made to alleviate the disastrous state of the victim and the poor.

4th, Forest fires destroying large areas, the souls inhabiting these trees, have their karma reaction conditions expired to devastate them, or did they die prematurely? Karma's theory that our suffering in our present life is the result of the crime we committed in our previous life has settled the poor with their miserable wealthy and poor system!

5th, If millions of people do not deserve it then where is the karma? By default, your karma has decided that we will get bad for such a fate, so we should not help the injured. We should expose him to his situation. If we can be useful to the injured, where is the institution of justice by Karma?

6th, Since the soul, came from the previous birth and because there are more births than deathss - the number of people on the earth has increased to more than 6 billion people, and it is expected to double again someday in the future - so if it did not come from God, where from?

7th, According to this law, people can be born to wealth or poverty. If this is so then the wealth should not enrich the poor, as sometimes does, which indicates that the karma may be compromised. If this natural law of Karma can be nullified, it will mean that humans can change the law of nature according to karma.

8th, Many poor people and those trying to improve their suffering will go against the laws of Karma as according to it, life is suffering. If those conditions can be improved, karma is useless. If we can defeat karma, people can change God's law of nature. But, if we can change the natural law of God, then God has been fooled. Indeed, if your God exists then he is a fool since thousands of people have enriched their lives which karma said was impossible. Since God is a fable, I suspect the obvious, that karma is a fable too. As Nietzsche wisely said, "God is dead."

Conculsion: This karma is a violation of natural law.

I doubt that you can answer even one of these questions above but, if you do answer them, it will be in the attempt to avoid displaying your own stupidity as much as possible, but they will obviously be a foolish answer. It will be another way to say that you do not understand it at all. That it is a mystery.

I have made it an appointment to call you a fool in advance, and I doubt that you will ever change in a better direction.

To quote one Chinses giant:

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." - Confucius

Re: Revealing false dogmas: Karma

Zero: It is worldwide recognition that China has taken the first step to develop the concept of zero.
Vj ~ Must have slipped the genius's mind someway down the line.
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein

All you're doing is barking like dog! You still haven't provided the source knowledge!

Conculsion: This karma is a violation of natural law.
Vj ~ You certainly don't have a better understanding of natural laws than the genius Einstein.

"We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." Albert Einstein

Karma works hand in hand with the Laws of nature and you're an idiot when it comes to the functions of both.

I doubt that you can answer even one of these questions above
Vj ~ You're not looking for answers, you're here to show off what you know, which to my standard of learning, is zilch.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
Like your friend Camel, which ever one you are, there is still a huge problem.

To quote one Chinses giant: "Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." - Confucius
Vj ~ Let the "fool" fill you in Masato, the "wisest" is the one with a source knowledge.

PS
You didn't review the previous dialogues I had with Camel. The subject of karma and much more came up.

Chinese contributions to this site

Albert Einstein was not a historian but a scientist. Scholars have come to the conclusion that it was the Chinese who promoted the advancement of civilization. The source, of course, is Marco Polo’s adventures into China. You did not answer my question. Like Mr. Tanaka here, you proved yourself to be the fool.

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." — Confucius

One day, we will understand these laws, and they will not be ambiguous or vaguely understood. When that day is displayed on your calendar, where will your God of the gaps be hiding then?

PS
You have the burden of proof. So, I think you have a very big problem to solve.

Re: Chinese contributions to this site

Albert Einstein was not a historian but a scientist.
Vj ~ And he made it his duty by honest inquiry to know the origin of science.

You did not answer my question.
Vj ~ You don't need an answer, you need an idiot to compliment your stupidity.

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." — Confucius
Vj ~ You're reading and writing but you're not thinking which is what fools commonly do. The "stupidest" are those who fail to declare a source knowledge.

One day, we will understand these laws,
Vj ~ We, the Aryas, already understand these laws. It was there from the very beginning of human civilization for all of mankind.
When your "day" comes at sometime in the future, what good would it be for you and those who have already gone?

You have the burden of proof. So, I think you have a very big problem to solve.
Vj ~ The problem is already solved, there is absolutely no cure for a fool.

Reilgion is empty and foolish

You are a perfect idiot. I do not expect to spend any more time with foolish people.

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." — Confucius

Re: Reilgion is empty and foolish

You are a perfect idiot. I do not expect to spend any more time with foolish people.
Vj ~ Are you preparing to run or are you already running? I guess I have to wait and see.

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." — Confucius
Vj ~ Just remember you got it from the wise.