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Illinois Pro-Life Forum

Welcome to the Illinois Pro-Life Forum hosted by the Illinois Federation for Right to Life. Here visitors can post their Pro-Life ideas, comments, events, and discussions. Messages with cursing, slurs and direct attacks on visitors will be removed and or banned from use of this message forum.

Illinois Pro-Life Forum
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Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Your argument is the moral equivalent of saying why didn't the allies just let Hitler do what he was doing and be grateful! The idea that there exists in the US a network of killing centers designed for the purpose of killing innocent babies, is the most ungodly idea that anyone could come up with, and yet that is Planned Parenthood. Is it a "right" to kill an innocent third party for the sins of another? Think before you answer because IF you say yes that killing is ok, then you make a pact with the devil and he does not care which innocent--it could even be you-- dies as long as he takes another one to hell with him as the reward. The killing of innocents is a SIN, not a right, not health care. And there will come a day when this whole nation looks back to this period of time with horror,wondering as the world does now in regard to Hitler,how a nation could have been so wicked as to allow a mother to kill her own offspring when the baby was so vulnerable. There can never be a justification for the killing of the innocent! And do not worry that I am making a threat to you--I am not; I am 100% prolife believing even the wicked may repent in time. I am only trying to make you think and bypass the propaganda that Planned Parenthood has taught you. Killing of innocents is a crime and it is a sin. The killing of Nick Berg by terrorists did not "help" the world nor the cause of the terrorists and neither does killing of innocent babies help the US. I pray that you will have your spiritual eyes opened before you make a pact with the devil that will cost you your life AND your soul. God said, "thou shalt not kill' in Exodus 20:13,and in Romans 6:23, it is written, "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. " Gloria Poole Pappas,RN

Re: Re: Planned murder is goal of Planned Parenthood

Reply: Planned Parenthood is planned murder, planned genocide, and planned annihilation of the future of America, but it not "health care" or doing good ! What you said is morally equivalent to saying that Hitler and his thugs of Nazi Medicine were administering a good thing to the Jews as they gassed them to death. It is sick, perverse, ungodly! Killing of anybody is a sin against God who said,"thou shalt not kill" as a Commandment. The Commandments are written in Exodus ch 20 and again in Deuteronomy ch 5. God repeated Himself for emphasis! As for your pagan belief that publishing God's words and truth don't make a difference, you deceive yourself. "For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do." Hebrews 4:12-13
As for your remarks that it is nobody's bueiness that somewhere between 3500-4000 babies are dying daily in this nation at the hands of those licensed by governments,you are either a fool* or the enemy of America. "The fool hath said in his heart. 'there is no God'." Psalms 53:1 If a fool, then God will judge you and if the enemy of America intent on destroying this nation by implosion and depopulation, then may the righteous authorities judge you. It is the exactly the business of the believers in the ONE true God to intervene to stop the killing of innocents.There is no purpose of any government but to protect the innocent. Jesus said,"even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matthew 18:14 If massive slaughter of innocent future citizens of this nation does not concern the citizens then they deserve whatever wrath they get from God!
gloria poole pappas,RN

Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Luke 11:46 - And He said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you lay burdens heavy to be borne on the backs of others and you lift not a finger to those burdens yourselves. (47) Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. (48) So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your ancestors; for they killed them, and you build their tombs.
(52) Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."

God is the only judge. None of us know God's will. To think otherwise is the height of hubris. Judge not lest yea be judged yourself. Forgive them their trespasses as you yourself expect to be forgiven.

Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

My forgiveness would mean nothing to them. They did not abort my children or grandchildren and I give God the glory for that! My forgiveness won't get them into heaven. Only God can forgive sins and only the blood of Jesus can redeem anyone. But that does not change the fact that Jesus told the woman in adultery to go and sin no more. Jesus does not condone the killing of innocents. There is no evidence to suggest that HE did anywhere in the Bible. In fact the opposite is true. Jesus said, "even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."{Matthew 18:14] And again Jesus said, "for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.These are the things which defile a man;" [Matthew 15:19-20]
I think if you are deceiving yourself that the killing of innocents will just go on in this nation like it did in Hitler's day or Stalin's day or the Khmer Rouge, you are deceiving yourself. The killing of innocents in this nation will either end peacefully because the Congress has the courage to do it or God will bring total destruction on this nation to bring an end to the systematic slaughter of the innocents. The words of the prophets of the Old Testament in Psalms 106:36-42,and also Jeremiah, Ezekial,Amos, Isaiah all condemn the shedding of innocent blood and the equally abominable homosexual perversions and in each instance where God sent prophets to warn against such, God Himself dealt with the nation. Read your Bible and see what the punishments were for the nations that shed the innocent blood. Gloria Poole Pappas,RN

Re: Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

I do not speak of their sins. I speak of your own. Presumption, in assuming knowledge of God's will. The violation of the commandment that Jesus established, to love your enemies as you love yourself. Disapprove of abortion if you will. Protest against the practice, petition your government for a redress of this grievance. But do not assume that you know God's will on the matter. It is certainly a sin to hate another for their sins. Which amongst us is without sin? Who is truly blameless? Perhaps you should hate me for my vanity. Perhaps you should hate the 30 million obese Americans for their sloth and gluttony as well. Perhaps, unless of course Jesus is truly your idol. He embraced the sinner, the thieves and prostitutes.

God made us in His image. The impulses that these 'adulterors' have are there only because God put them there. These impulses begin during the onset of puberty. At this time it becomes physically possible to bear children, and the drive is certainly there. Perhaps at one time a person of this age was mature enough to survive within their society. It is no coincidence that the Jewish people accept as mature men and women children of this age. Our society has become too complex, however, for a person in their young teen years to raise a child, to be a true adult. However, the impulse to breed still exists and is strongest in these years.

Should it be a surprise then that teenaged children have sex? It is part of how we are made up to do so. The natural consequence is pregnancy. Because of the restrictions and demands of our society they are unprepared to care for these children. These children have few options at this point. Abortion happens to be one of them. Since you disagree with abortion as a solution to this problem, what other option do you support? What have you done to promote this alternative?

Is it an alternative, perhaps, to promote abstinance? This is the official view of our educational system, hands down. There is no school system within the United States (that I know of) which does not promote abstinance to children to prevent the spread to disease and the incidence of teenaged pregnancy. While it is perhaps the best solution for the problem, it is impractical to expect the solution to be followed, in spite of the best efforts of our schools. Kids make the wrong decision at times.

What of women who are raped, and as a result become pregnant? Should they be forced to suffer the additional indignity of bearing to term the offspring of their rapist?

Is adoption an effective alternative? Already, even with abortions and contraceptives there are far more children to adopt than families willing to adopt them. How do most of these children end up, with no parents to care for them except for the state? How much more of a problem would there be if adoption was the only solution?

The issue comes down to the definition of human life. It is apparant that you believe that the fetus should be considered as such. You suggest that there are medical justifications as this. What are these? How is it possible to tell if a fetus has emotions (the claim that you can identify emotions in the fetus, whether they are there or not, is dubious)? More importantly, at what time can you identify these emotions? Seconds after conception, perhaps?

God has asked for the spilling of innocent blood in His name. The sacrifice of Issac and of the Gileadean judge are two examples that come to mind.

Re: Re: Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Mr. Cooper.

I will not pretend to know about religion or the bible. As you will be able to realize from my sentence structure and use of the English language, I am not all that intelligent. What I do believe is that human life begins at conception. I did not exist until my fathers sperm and my mothers egg fused to create a distinct organism that could only have been human. Before I was an adult, I was a child. Before I was a child, I was a baby. Before I was a baby, I was a fetus. Before I was a fetus, I was a zygote. These are the stages of human development. At no time was I anything except human. I was never just a mass of cells that could have become a monkey or an elepant. I was never a set of tissue that could be looked upon as cancer. From the very beginning I was a human being both in mind and body each intrinsic of the other. Although, dependent on my mother while in her womb, I was a distinct individual completely different than my mother. An individual that the Constitution of the United States assigns rights to. Particularly, the right to life. The argument that you make in regards that abortion is not ideal but it is the only practical solution is not valid because it is not only immoral but it is denying the rights of the unborn baby who is an innocent human being. Rights that the US Constitution states that every individual has.
I would like to claim these arguments for life as my own. Unfortunately, my scattered brain needed the help of Robert P. George and his book "Clash of Orthodoxies" to clarify my stand. I would recommend this book to pro-abortion advocates as well as anti-abortion advocates.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Pete, you sound very intelligent to me and seem to have the wisdom of God.Thank you for defending human life!Your argument is sound and persuasive. gloria poole pappas,RN

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Pete,

Don't put yourself down. You stated your position well. As far as I can determine, the issue of abortion comes down to whether the fetus is human life. If it is then abortion is murder and should be abhorred by both Christians and non-Christians alike. If the fetus is not human life, then abortion should be an option open to women. I respect the fact that you believe a fetus is human life. I myself am uncertain. I am looking for medical evidence to support either side. This will be my primary standard to determine my position. I would certainly appreciate it if you have run into any such evidence and could lead me to it. I will look up the book you cited and put it on my reading list.
I appreciate your conviction. Please understand that I have heard the issue asserted as strongly from the opposite side of the table.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We must all do more to end the killing of innocents and shut down Planned Pa

Mr. Cooper.

Thank you for the encouragement. Old habits die hard.

Your open mindedness is admirable. I, perhaps, had that stance at one time in regards to aborion and it lead me to my convictions now. You know as well as I, due to the nature of an issue such as aborion we all seem to be a little too willing to close our minds and not have to think through this tough decision. The importance of the consequences does create a sense of urgency for this decision. Whether the consequence be from my stand of abortion being immoral or from your potential/current(Respectively-I am not sure) stance of abortion.

My convictions were formed because, I believe that I have found truth when I came to the conclusion that an unborn baby at any stage is indeed a human life. This has what has not closed my mind but what has made me delcare my belief with conviction. There might not be a whole lot difference there I admit. In order to reciprocate(sp?) your open-mindedness, I will be willing, as you are, to test my belief with any evidence you can supply that is contrary to human life beginning at conception.

What I appreciated so much about the Clash of Orthodoxies is that Robert P. George defined the pro-abortion argument at all levels. He was not only able to counter-argue for life on all levels he also was able to show how pro-life in general is consistent with society. I was going to pick out a couple of pages that define the scientific arguement of when life begins, which the book will lead you to believe that it is at conception(no surprise), but I would then be afraid you will miss the rest that the book has to offer.

In the book "Clash of Orhtodoxies" Robert George references a debate held by the American Political Science Association. The debate is between John Finnis and Jeffrey Reiman and it is on abortion. My understanding is that during this debate the issue of when life begins is covered. I have tried to find the debate in written form and I have been unsuccesful so far. However, Robert George has another book available by the title "Public Reason..". In this book are the essays that both John Finnis and Jefrey Reiman used for the basis of their debates. I plan to get a hold of this book but most likely will not have a chance to read it until early next year.

Mr Cooper, I hope you have a good holiday and I look forward to our exchanges.

the fetus is human!

I read this post and wanted to tell you that you can find the evidence you seek by going to any medical library and looking in either a genetics textbook or a obstetrics/gynecology text. Also,ask yourself the basic question: Does each species reproduce after itself? For instance do mating cats produce cats? Do mating dogs produce dogs? Do mating horses produce horses? Do mating humans produce humans? I think your debate with yourself is making it too difficult. Even a very young child understands that when a pregnant woman's belly is swollen like a watermelon that there is a child within. Ask one sometime when you see a small child with a pregnant woman. As to the medical answer, of course a human female egg when penetrated by human male sperm is human, what else could it be? A person does not become a cat in the womb. And a cat does not become a person in the womb! And the single cell has millions of genes and chromosones that have complex instructions about how to create a new being. That one cell starts immediately dividing and keeps on doing that constantly until in just 28 days the human appearance is there and the human heart is beating and the human brain is working and the human kidneys are developing. By the third month after the fertilization of the egg, the human baby has all organs formed. After that time, the baby will continue to enlarge and develop and flesh out. A human embryo is human, a human fetus is human, a human neonate is human, a human child is human, a human teenager is human, a human adult is human, a human elder is human! It is the sequence of life. Gloria Poole Pappas,RN